Just Checking… Yep, Still Evil
Coolz0r was trying to view the “Google Song” and was forced to upgrade his version of the Flash software. Now, he’s infuriated to discover that the auto-installer installed the Yahoo Toolbar without once informing him it was doing so. Not only that, but it use geolocating to give him a toolbar in a language he doesn’t want.
I can’t say this enough: Bundling is evil. There is no scenario in which I download or install one program and want another. If I wanted it, I’d say so. What does Flash have to do with a browser toolbar, or a DVD player with desktop search? Bundling is evil, and it needs to stop.
I don’t think it will stop. Co-bundling software is a big money maker, especially for software that lacks a better biz model.
Comment by Randy Charles Morin | June 23, 2005
but Microsoft can do it with media Player, and you question why anyone would ever not want it…
Comment by Keith | June 23, 2005
Bundling is evil
It’s unbelievable to me that some software companies still don’t understand that pissing people off is bad business:I can’t say this enough: Bundling is evil. There is no scenario in which I download or install one program and want another….
Trackback by The Hole | June 23, 2005
Keith, bundling with the Operating System is not the same as bundling with a random download. Apple loads all sorts of programs with its operating system, and everyone loves them for it. I think its a great thing. But when Apple tries to force an install of iTunes on me when I download Quicktime, that is evil.
Comment by Nathan Weinberg | June 23, 2005
I’m not saying that bundling with the operating system is inherently evil. I’m saying that bundling is bundling. And I fail to see how part of the OS install, and part of the download install are seriously different.
If I want to Opt out, I should damn well be able to opt out.
Also, what comes with a computer and what comes with an OS are very different things. (i.e. most PC’s come with Word or Works or WordPerfect of some sort, but that certainly is not part of windows.)
Comment by Keith | June 23, 2005
I realized “CoolZor” came to that conclusion, but the lack of commenting at his essay made better info difficult to convey.
No, you don’t need Yahoo to run Flash. In fact, the only way you even see an *offer* for Yahoo Toolbar is if you’re in IE/Win and actually visit the Macromedia website for a Flash Player, instead of using that browser’s normal ActiveX installation.
“I can’t say this enough: Bundling is evil.” But if you checked, you would find that there is no third-party software bundled within the Macromedia Flash Player download:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/productinfo/faq/#section-4
Regards,
John Dowdell
Macromedia Support
Comment by John Dowdell | June 28, 2005
John, I really appreciate you showing up here. That said, Coolz0r is not a computer novice like someone’s grandmother. If he didn’t realize he was installing the Yahoo toolbar when he installed Flash, then clearly not enough has been done to seperate the two. I’m glad to hear you are not bundling, but then this is a simpler, but still annoying case of unclear install instructions and web design. Which page has the offer for the Yahoo Toolbar, and why is Macromedia offering Yahoo’s software, if not for financial gain?
Comment by Nathan Weinberg | June 28, 2005
Dear jOhn (I’m Coolz0r, John)
I know I don’t need a toolbar from Yahoo! to be able to run a FlashPlayer. That’s pretty obvious to me. Yet still, your software has betrayed me. I didn’t want a Yahoo! toolbar, and I’m aware of the tickerbox you’ve added on the macromedia downloads page. But this time, I had no chance to interfere. It was installed automatically, and included the toolbar. If I had known an update was available, be sure I would have gotten it manually in order to disable this wonderful feature.
I’m not against the promotion of another product, but I love this right I think I have, to deny a service I do not want to use.
Let me state clearly, I have nothing against FlashPlayer, although it has a bit of a monopoly on ‘motioned websites’, it’s still a wonderful thing.
I think for some users, an extra toolbar could come in handy too. But not for me. I think Yahoo! has the right to offer a toolbar, just like anyone else, and I do not want to express myself about the quality of the service. The search is super, but I’ll type it myself in my browser if I want to use it.
What I want to point out in your reply is the following :
“[…] if you’re in IE/Win and actually visit the Macromedia website for a Flash Player, instead of using that browser’s normal ActiveX installation.”
If I understand this correctly, any site that has the auto-detection plus auto-fetch-player function installed, serves you a player that includes the toolbar? Hm. This doesn’t sound good. Please to explain to me in what way this benefits any user on the internet, because I can’t see the relation between the need for a Yahoo! toolbar and the urge for a FlashPlayer in order to be able to see the site you were on -that redirected the user to macromedia in the first place.
This sort of turns every site that has auto-dectection to a marketing hotspot for a BUNDLED Yahoo! and Macromedia tool. I think.
Comment by Coolz0r | June 29, 2005
That prior link has info on who actually sees what:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/productinfo/faq/#section-4
The majority of IE/Win updates are handled in the background, without ever leaving your site or visiting the Macromedia site, through the normal ActiveX process. (Netscape Plugins, used by other browsers, use site visits exclusively; ActiveX Controls usually use background downloads, but some developers route IE/Win visitors to the site instead, whether via VBScript detection routines or a link on their site to the offer page.)
> But this time, I had no chance to
> interfere. It was installed automatically,
> and included the toolbar.
I’m not sure of a way to achieve such a result. At most, if an IE/Win person without Yahoo Toolbar visits the Macromedia site, they’ll see a regular HTML form with a checkbox for the offer. If we can determine a way that someone might not have such choice then that would need to be identified and addressed, thanks.
jd/mm
Comment by John Dowdell | June 29, 2005
No, you may not change my f’ing home page!
In CNet’s article Yahoo IM users get more than they bargained for: If you’re one of the tens of millions of Yahoo users asked to upgrade your instant-messaging software this week, be on your toes: The update can open the door to unwanted PC housegues…
Trackback by Jeremy Zawodny's blog | September 2, 2005
this is a late comment, but flash player is also the same software that closes all your Mozilla browser windows on installation WITHOUT warning even AFTER I filed a bug report against VERSION 5.
So Macromedia sucks just like the rest of them.
I don’t complain that Office bundles Word, Excel and so on, the thing is that:
1. they make it clear and
2. they let you uninstall it without leaving crap behind
3. they *never* change user settings and
4. they don’t present you ads on stuff you don’t want
In my opinion Windows XP just as Mac OS X should have a “Do you want this additional Software”-dialog in their installation so I wouldn’t get MSN Messenger and Outlook Express on every install, because they suck.
Comment by jmaurus | September 4, 2005